From spencer at autonomous.tv Mon Feb 4 01:35:23 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (Spencer Butler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP Message-ID: <20020124011811.GA1999@Mail> http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/openAP/getting_started_flash.html http://opensource.instant802.com/getting_started.php http://www.magicram.com/industrial_sram.htm I have been some research on wireless stuff and come up with these links. Build your own AccessPoint! Pretty cool indeed. I have the SMC2652w, and I am planning on getting an SRAM for it and giving this a shot. One of my cheif complaints about the WAP is that it does not do bridging. So this sounds like a great solution. And of course it will be upgradeable as they work on the project. openAP is ok with me. Anybody played with this at all? Spencer Butler Twin Cities Open Systems spencer@tcopensys.org | Open Source Solutions http://tcopensys.org | Every Day Solutions Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020204/02fcfe02/attachment.pgp From andyw at pobox.com Mon Feb 4 11:39:04 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP In-Reply-To: <20020124011811.GA1999@Mail>; from spencer@autonomous.tv on Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 07:18:11PM -0600 References: <20020124011811.GA1999@Mail> Message-ID: <20020204111642.G1503@florence.linkmargin.com> Spencer Butler wrote: > http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/openAP/getting_started_flash.html > http://opensource.instant802.com/getting_started.php > http://www.magicram.com/industrial_sram.htm > > I have been some research on wireless stuff and come up with these > links. Build your own AccessPoint! Pretty cool indeed. I have the > SMC2652w, and I am planning on getting an SRAM for it and giving this a > shot. One of my cheif complaints about the WAP is that it does not do > bridging. So this sounds like a great solution. And of course it will be > upgradeable as they work on the project. openAP is ok with me. > > Anybody played with this at all? I've not played with OpenAP on that particular Eumitcom board, but I have dorked with the pieces on other platforms. I am keeping my eyes open for a Eumitcom-based AP, though :-) The only reservations I have about this platform are the same ones I have about the "linux on the RG-1000/Airport" idea: http://www-hft.ee.tu-berlin.de/~strauman/airport/airport.html In both cases, IMHO, the platform - while small and cheap(ish), is underpowered, has little storage, and is effectively obsolete. That's not to say that the effort isn't fun, educational, rewarding and potentially useful. If we get critical mass of twin-cities geeks working with these systems perhaps we can find a way to share/rotate a memory card that is needed only for the initial linux-ization of the board. How many others are working with OpenAP locally, or planning to ? -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Mon Feb 4 14:21:59 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP In-Reply-To: <20020124011811.GA1999@Mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Spencer Butler wrote: > http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/openAP/getting_started_flash.html > http://opensource.instant802.com/getting_started.php > http://www.magicram.com/industrial_sram.htm > > I have been some research on wireless stuff and come up with these > links. Build your own AccessPoint! Pretty cool indeed. I have the > SMC2652w, and I am planning on getting an SRAM for it and giving this > a shot. One of my cheif complaints about the WAP is that it does not > do bridging. So this sounds like a great solution. And of course it > will be upgradeable as they work on the project. openAP is ok with me. Yeah, openAP is supposed to really rock -- let us know when you get this set up. Note that you do need linear SRAM, which can be hard to find from what other people have been saying.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From nryberg at uspsoig.gov Mon Feb 4 14:47:56 2002 From: nryberg at uspsoig.gov (nryberg@uspsoig.gov) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's Message-ID: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A36E@POPEYE> All - Would anyone be interested in compiling a list of potential locations for AP's? I know the readership of this list is still fairly small, but I think things could blossom if we could even just get the beginnings of a network going. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the recent /. posting: http://www.sydneywireless.com/db2/ For instance, even just a list of places we could host out of (my home for instance...): My Home Lat: 44.902 Lon: -093.290 I'd want to keep that private, for the security conscious among us (myself included - thus abbreviated lat/long data), but you get the idea. BTW - if you aren't lucky and have your own personal GPS, you can get Lat/Long info from http://geocode.com/eagle.html. - Nick Ryberg From andyw at pobox.com Mon Feb 4 15:40:48 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A36E@POPEYE>; from nryberg@uspsoig.gov on Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 03:35:16PM -0500 References: <63B474C9AD27D411936400508BACF93018A36E@POPEYE> Message-ID: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> nryberg@uspsoig.gov wrote: > Would anyone be interested in compiling a list of potential locations for > AP's? I know the readership of this list is still fairly small, but I think > things could blossom if we could even just get the beginnings of a network > going. What kind of network do people want ? Localised areas of free connectivity with backhaul via DSL/Cable/ to the Internet ? Or do people envisage a local version of Seattle/BAWUG/Portland/NYC model, with a wireless network which provides connectivity without relying on traditional pay ISP services ? What kind of services would people make available locally (local to the wireless 'net that is - i.e. without having to go out over a traditional ISP) ? Having done this kind of thing before (there's a 9600baud data repeater on top of Moos Tower that I built many years ago) the sprawl that characterizes the metro area really sucks for reaching critical mass with a cellular/mesh model. > I'd want to keep that private, for the security conscious among us (myself > included - thus abbreviated lat/long data), but you get the idea. Either way, folks can mark down 44.9232N/93.3333W as having an open node up and running. 8dB omni to be added soon (if the snow stays off the roof.) I'll happily maintain a list (and create pretty maps) of metro nodes, if people send coords to the list or me. I'll probably not have time to do anything fancy like stick up a web page that automatically updates maps etc in the near future, so if someone wants to do that, speak up - I'll happily pass on being bookkeeper :-) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Tue Feb 5 00:23:06 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (natecars@real-time.com) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > What kind of network do people want ? Localised areas of free > connectivity with backhaul via DSL/Cable/ to the Internet ? > Or do people envisage a local version of Seattle/BAWUG/Portland/NYC > model, with a wireless network which provides connectivity without > relying on traditional pay ISP services ? What kind of services would > people make available locally (local to the wireless 'net that is - > i.e. without having to go out over a traditional ISP) ? I'd like to see a model where we have a private network that can also be used for internet access -- that is, if we want to play LAN games against each other, we don't have to rely on slow internet connections (I know this won't be totally possible until we get quite a few people signed up), but you can also go to any (most?) nodes and get 'net access. If a node doesn't have local 'net access, you could just gateway through a remote one. Also like to see authentication via something like NoCatAuth. That way, even if we do offer totally free access, people will still see the TCWUG splash screen the first time they join. :) I'm planning on getting it set up on my wireless gateway sometime soon.. if I'm ever home long enough to actually do it. > Having done this kind of thing before (there's a 9600baud data > repeater on top of Moos Tower that I built many years ago) the sprawl > that characterizes the metro area really sucks for reaching critical > mass with a cellular/mesh model. Yeah, it does. 'course, probably better than a place like Denver... :) > > I'd want to keep that private, for the security conscious among us (myself > > included - thus abbreviated lat/long data), but you get the idea. > > Either way, folks can mark down 44.9232N/93.3333W as having an open > node up and running. 8dB omni to be added soon (if the snow stays off > the roof.) I ended up selling most of my wireless gear to a local company who needed a link to replace dead fiber, so I don't have anything besides a few weak AP's inside my house right now.. hoping to have the extra cash to buy a few real AP's again soon so I can actually get an omni on my roof. Helps that I have a couple friends who have halfway reasonable LoS that I can give net access to.. :) > I'll happily maintain a list (and create pretty maps) of metro nodes, > if people send coords to the list or me. I'll probably not have time > to do anything fancy like stick up a web page that automatically > updates maps etc in the near future, so if someone wants to do that, > speak up - I'll happily pass on being bookkeeper :-) Anyone know where to get on anline app that'll let people add their own AP's? I know there's been talk of it on bawug/seattlewireless/nycwirelesse, but I haven't paid a ton of attention.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From andyw at pobox.com Tue Feb 5 09:14:45 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:35 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 12:09:49AM -0600 References: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020205090745.B21929@florence.linkmargin.com> natecars@real-time.com wrote: > [...] > Anyone know where to get on anline app that'll let people add their own > AP's? I know there's been talk of it on > bawug/seattlewireless/nycwirelesse, but I haven't paid a ton of > attention.. I'm sure the sydney stuff would be available, I'll ask. I still doubt that I'll have time to bludgeon it into submission on a local server... -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From spencer at autonomous.tv Tue Feb 5 09:31:37 2002 From: spencer at autonomous.tv (Spencer Butler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP In-Reply-To: References: <20020124011811.GA1999@Mail> Message-ID: <20020205151625.GA27854@Mail> * Nate Carlson (natecars@real-time.com) wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Spencer Butler wrote: > > http://www.guerrilla.net/reference/openAP/getting_started_flash.html > > http://opensource.instant802.com/getting_started.php > > http://www.magicram.com/industrial_sram.htm > > > > I have been some research on wireless stuff and come up with these > > links. Build your own AccessPoint! Pretty cool indeed. I have the > > SMC2652w, and I am planning on getting an SRAM for it and giving this > > a shot. One of my cheif complaints about the WAP is that it does not > > do bridging. So this sounds like a great solution. And of course it > > will be upgradeable as they work on the project. openAP is ok with me. > > Yeah, openAP is supposed to really rock -- let us know when you get this > set up. > > Note that you do need linear SRAM, which can be hard to find from what > other people have been saying.. I will do that. I am under the impression that the above link will lead you to a spot where one can buy the card. That is the card that was referenced as the "best one to use". The only thing holding me back at this point is the $$ :( -- Spencer Butler Twin Cities Open Systems spencer@tcopensys.org | Open Source Solutions http://tcopensys.org | Every Day Solutions Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2 68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020205/d52c7fa6/attachment.pgp From natecars at real-time.com Tue Feb 5 13:06:27 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP In-Reply-To: <20020205151625.GA27854@Mail> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Spencer Butler wrote: > you to a spot where one can buy the card. That is the card that was > referenced as the "best one to use". The only thing holding me back at > this point is the $$ : Yeah. :( I've heard that Apple Newtons use the right kind of card, if anyone has those sitting around.. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From austad at marketwatch.com Tue Feb 5 13:32:05 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514D78@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> I might be able to get ahold of some of these... Lemme check. > -----Original Message----- > From: Nate Carlson [mailto:natecars@real-time.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:51 PM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] openAP > > > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Spencer Butler wrote: > > you to a spot where one can buy the card. That is the card that was > > referenced as the "best one to use". The only thing holding > me back at > > this point is the $$ : > > Yeah. :( > > I've heard that Apple Newtons use the right kind of card, if > anyone has > those sitting around.. > > -- > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From sbutler at ARNAN.com Tue Feb 5 15:34:27 2002 From: sbutler at ARNAN.com (Spencer Butler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] openAP In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514D78@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514D78@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: On Tuesday 05 February 2002 01:20 pm, you wrote: > I might be able to get ahold of some of these... Lemme check. > you would then be my new hero :-) > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Nate Carlson [mailto:natecars@real-time.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:51 PM > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] openAP > > > > On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Spencer Butler wrote: > > > you to a spot where one can buy the card. That is the card that was > > > referenced as the "best one to use". The only thing holding > > > > me back at > > > > > this point is the $$ : > > > > Yeah. :( > > > > I've heard that Apple Newtons use the right kind of card, if > > anyone has > > those sitting around.. > > > > -- > > Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 > > http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > http://www.tcwug.org > > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From andyw at pobox.com Tue Feb 5 22:14:50 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 12:09:49AM -0600 References: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> natecars@real-time.com wrote: > [...] > Anyone know where to get on anline app that'll let people add their own > AP's? I know there's been talk of it on > bawug/seattlewireless/nycwirelesse, but I haven't paid a ton of > attention.. The aussies from sydneywireless are willing to release the code for their node mapping pages, once they've taken off a few more of the rough edges. I'll keep you posted.. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Wed Feb 6 09:45:19 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > The aussies from sydneywireless are willing to release the code for > their node mapping pages, once they've taken off a few more of the > rough edges. I'll keep you posted.. Cool! Let us know.. we should probably host it under tcwug.org, huh? :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From jtg at lucent.com Wed Feb 6 11:51:53 2002 From: jtg at lucent.com (Jim Graves) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: References: <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> I used the Census bureau's TIGER mapping service to do an AP map (it's at www.mspwireless.net - which is a page I set up a while ago and haven't had time to touch in at least a couple of months). At 09:33 AM 2/6/2002 -0600, Nate Carlson wrote: >On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > > The aussies from sydneywireless are willing to release the code for > > their node mapping pages, once they've taken off a few more of the > > rough edges. I'll keep you posted.. > >Cool! Let us know.. we should probably host it under tcwug.org, huh? :) > >-- >Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 >http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 > > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list --------------------------------- Jim Graves CCIE #7524, CISSP, MCSE Senior Network Systems Consultant Lucent Worldwide Services Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 From andyw at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 13:17:11 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com>; from jtg@lucent.com on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:34:47AM -0600 References: <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <20020206130347.B28106@florence.linkmargin.com> Jim Graves wrote: > I used the Census bureau's TIGER mapping service to do an AP map (it's at > www.mspwireless.net - which is a page I set up a while ago and haven't had > time to touch in at least a couple of months). The problem was lessa bout drawing the map (there's mapblast, tiger and others) than about all the annoying user interface/data base/php things to get right - that's not something I can sign up to spend time doing right now. Perl scripts that cook up URLs - that's something I'm happy to do :-) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From jtg at lucent.com Wed Feb 6 16:42:34 2002 From: jtg at lucent.com (Jim Graves) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020206130347.B28106@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com> Oh, well if that's all, I have an insanely ugly perl script that converts netstumbler output to the format needed by TIGER. At 01:03 PM 2/6/2002 -0600, Andy Warner wrote: >Jim Graves wrote: > > I used the Census bureau's TIGER mapping service to do an AP map (it's at > > www.mspwireless.net - which is a page I set up a while ago and haven't had > > time to touch in at least a couple of months). > >The problem was lessa bout drawing the map (there's mapblast, tiger and >others) than about all the annoying user interface/data base/php things >to get right - that's not something I can sign up to spend time doing >right now. > >Perl scripts that cook up URLs - that's something I'm happy to do :-) >-- >andyw@pobox.com > >Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list --------------------------------- Jim Graves CCIE #7524, CISSP, MCSE Senior Network Systems Consultant Lucent Worldwide Services Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 From dieman at ringworld.org Wed Feb 6 17:20:07 2002 From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott M. Dier) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Map of locations for possible AP's References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <3C61B4C9.1090302@ringworld.org> Jim Graves wrote: > Oh, well if that's all, I have an insanely ugly perl script that > converts netstumbler output to the format needed by TIGER. Whats the format required by TIGER? I'm probally going to be (finally) getting around to writing more of my ipaq-linux 'stumbler' and would love to someday hook it into a gps. -- Scott Dier From jtg at lucent.com Wed Feb 6 17:21:29 2002 From: jtg at lucent.com (Jim Graves) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020206130347.B28106@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com> Oh, well if that's all, I have an insanely ugly perl script that converts netstumbler output to the format needed by TIGER. At 01:03 PM 2/6/2002 -0600, Andy Warner wrote: >Jim Graves wrote: > > I used the Census bureau's TIGER mapping service to do an AP map (it's at > > www.mspwireless.net - which is a page I set up a while ago and haven't had > > time to touch in at least a couple of months). > >The problem was lessa bout drawing the map (there's mapblast, tiger and >others) than about all the annoying user interface/data base/php things >to get right - that's not something I can sign up to spend time doing >right now. > >Perl scripts that cook up URLs - that's something I'm happy to do :-) >-- >andyw@pobox.com > >Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list --------------------------------- Jim Graves CCIE #7524, CISSP, MCSE Senior Network Systems Consultant Lucent Worldwide Services Alpha Pager: 1-800-467-1467 From andyw at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 18:07:38 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com>; from jtg@lucent.com on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 04:38:29PM -0600 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020206130347.B28106@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com> Message-ID: <20020206175253.A28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Jim Graves wrote: > Oh, well if that's all, I have an insanely ugly perl script that converts > netstumbler output to the format needed by TIGER. The issue was co-ordinating people saying: "I have an open AP at 44.xxx N, 93.xxx W" not mapping peoples stumbling. The example first cited was: http://www.sydneywireless.com/db2 I offered to take people's manual submissions in lieu of putting up pretty web pages with a database backend and automagic map function. Ob-tech-ramble: Have you found a way to get tiget to auto-center & auto-scale the map it draws ? That's one nice thing about mapblast (the biggest drawback being the URL length limit.) -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 18:07:46 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <3C61B4C9.1090302@ringworld.org>; from dieman@ringworld.org on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 04:57:13PM -0600 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020206113400.0243fee8@pop7.ins.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020206163754.04faf370@pop7.ins.com> <3C61B4C9.1090302@ringworld.org> Message-ID: <20020206175412.B28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Scott M. Dier wrote: > [...] > Whats the format required by TIGER? I'm probally going to be (finally) > getting around to writing more of my ipaq-linux 'stumbler' and would > love to someday hook it into a gps. http://tiger.census.gov/instruct.html -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From asim_beg at hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 21:49:04 2002 From: asim_beg at hotmail.com (Asim Beg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's Message-ID: >Ob-tech-ramble: >Have you found a way to get tiget to auto-center & auto-scale the >map it draws ? That's one nice thing about mapblast (the biggest >drawback being the URL length limit.) >-- >andyw@pobox.com > >Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 Andy, Haven't seen the *obligatory* ending in a long time... reminiscent of alt.2600. Too bad they don't do it anymore. Maybe we should start it for tcwug...;-) Does anyone know if there is a way to map a bunch of locations at the same time on mapblast? I just can't seem to figure it out. Asim _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lxy at cloudnet.com Wed Feb 6 22:29:29 2002 From: lxy at cloudnet.com (Brian) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN Message-ID: In case you didn't see it on /. or in today's paper: http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1130636.html Too awesome :-) -Brian From andyw at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 23:14:10 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN In-Reply-To: ; from lxy@cloudnet.com on Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 03:10:41PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20020206225408.C28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Brian wrote: > In case you didn't see it on /. or in today's paper: > > http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1130636.html > > Too awesome :-) Not quite accurate, though - sorry. Look for a correction next Monday (I thought it was going to be last Monday, but I was wrong.) It's not free. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From asim_beg at hotmail.com Wed Feb 6 23:14:33 2002 From: asim_beg at hotmail.com (Asim Beg) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:36 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN Message-ID: Its strange. Brian's message was apparently posted on Jan 29 and we are getting it on Feb 6. Who is managing the tcwug list?. Maybe it needs some tweatking. Asim >From: Brian >Reply-To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org >To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org >Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN >Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:10:41 -0600 (CST) > >In case you didn't see it on /. or in today's paper: > >http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1130636.html > >Too awesome :-) > >-Brian > > >_______________________________________________ >Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, >Minnesota >http://www.tcwug.org >tcwug-list@tcwug.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Wed Feb 6 23:17:50 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless network at airport Message-ID: <20020129161315.141443b3.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Just in case people don't read Slashdot, the strib has a story on the wireless network that has been installed at MSP airport. http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1130636.html -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ #define ECHERNOBYL /* Core / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ dumped */ \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020206/cf84d439/attachment.pgp From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 23:34:22 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN In-Reply-To: ; from asim_beg@hotmail.com on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:57:50PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20020206232203.F1330@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/06/2002 at 10:57PM -0600), Asim Beg wrote: > Its strange. Brian's message was apparently posted on Jan 29 and we are > getting it on Feb 6. Who is managing the tcwug list?. Maybe it needs some > tweatking. My bet is that it was queued in his outbox since then and he just connected to the net and shipped it off. cje -- Chris Elmquist | mailto:chrise@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 23:34:25 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless network at airport In-Reply-To: <20020129161315.141443b3.hick0088@tc.umn.edu>; from hick0088@tc.umn.edu on Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 04:13:15PM -0600 References: <20020129161315.141443b3.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20020206232311.G1330@n0jcf.net> Ah.. OK. Can I withdraw my bet? :-) cje On Tuesday (01/29/2002 at 04:13PM -0600), Mike Hicks wrote: > Just in case people don't read Slashdot, the strib has a story on the > wireless network that has been installed at MSP airport. > > http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/1130636.html > > -- > _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ #define ECHERNOBYL /* Core > / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ dumped */ > \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) > [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -- Chris Elmquist | mailto:chrise@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 7 08:22:01 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link Message-ID: <20020207080603.4ebaaea4.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Hey everyone, Has anyone seen access points suddenly start running at very low speeds, even though the link has still negotiated to 11Mbps? I was having trouble yesterday, as the Linksys WAP11 in my apartment was only allowing data transfers of 16kByte/s. Rebooting the access point brought it back up to full speed. This may have coincided with my roommate resuming his WinXP laptop from hibernate -- he has some weird problem where the system takes several minutes to re-associate with the AP, and it's usually faster for him to reboot both XP and the access point. He's using an Orinoco Silver card. -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ The cost of feathers has / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ risen, even down is up! \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020207/999724e2/attachment.pgp From trammell at trammell.dyndns.org Thu Feb 7 09:30:04 2002 From: trammell at trammell.dyndns.org (John J. Trammell) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN In-Reply-To: <20020206232203.F1330@n0jcf.net>; from chrise@pobox.com on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:22:03PM -0600 References: <20020206232203.F1330@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20020207092319.A13947@trammell.dyndns.org> On Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:22:03PM -0600, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (02/06/2002 at 10:57PM -0600), Asim Beg wrote: > > Its strange. Brian's message was apparently posted on Jan 29 and we are > > getting it on Feb 6. Who is managing the tcwug list?. Maybe it needs some > > tweatking. > > My bet is that it was queued in his outbox since then and he just > connected to the net and shipped it off. > Nah, the mailing list box is overworked due to Linux kernel mailing list message insertion, IIRC. This problem has been discussed on [TCLUG] ad nauseam, and the list owner(s) do know about it... :-( -- I don't think the gods like that kind of attitude. From austad at marketwatch.com Thu Feb 7 10:51:45 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E07@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Yep, you or your neighbor was either using a 2.4Ghz cordless phone, or a microwave. Also, the X10 wireless video links are 2.4Ghz, and very noisy. This is almost certainly the cause. Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Hicks [mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu] > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 8:06 AM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link > > > Hey everyone, > > Has anyone seen access points suddenly start running at very > low speeds, > even though the link has still negotiated to 11Mbps? I was > having trouble > yesterday, as the Linksys WAP11 in my apartment was only allowing data > transfers of 16kByte/s. Rebooting the access point brought > it back up to > full speed. > > This may have coincided with my roommate resuming his WinXP > laptop from > hibernate -- he has some weird problem where the system takes several > minutes to re-associate with the AP, and it's usually faster > for him to > reboot both XP and the access point. He's using an Orinoco > Silver card. > > -- > _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ The cost of feathers has > / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ risen, even down is up! > \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) > [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | > mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] > From andyw at pobox.com Thu Feb 7 10:53:32 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link In-Reply-To: <20020207080603.4ebaaea4.hick0088@tc.umn.edu>; from hick0088@tc.umn.edu on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 08:06:03AM -0600 References: <20020207080603.4ebaaea4.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20020207104652.D28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Mike Hicks wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Has anyone seen access points suddenly start running at very low speeds, > even though the link has still negotiated to 11Mbps? I was having trouble > yesterday, as the Linksys WAP11 in my apartment was only allowing data > transfers of 16kByte/s. Rebooting the access point brought it back up to > full speed. What rev of the firmware is the WAP11 running ? I saw similar behaviour (though throughput would sometimes grind to a complete halt too) using 1.4h3, it went away when I upgraded to 1.4i1 and it has been running fine ever since. It seemed to be related to SNMP access to the WAP11, but I never fully characterised the connection (if any.) Is it still running on the default channel (6) ? If so, you might want to try moving it (up) to see if that improves things. Try 11 since that does not overlap at all with the semi-universal default of channel 6. > This may have coincided with my roommate resuming his WinXP laptop from > hibernate -- he has some weird problem where the system takes several > minutes to re-associate with the AP, and it's usually faster for him to > reboot both XP and the access point. He's using an Orinoco Silver card. Does the profile specify the SSID ? If it's left open, then Orinocos can take a long time to make their choice - specifying the SSID really speeds this up. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Thu Feb 7 11:40:24 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: ; from asim_beg@hotmail.com on Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:31:17PM -0600 References: Message-ID: <20020207113015.F28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Asim Beg wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a way to map a bunch of locations at the same > time on mapblast? I just can't seem to figure it out. I can't claim any credit for figuring this out, but I use: http://www.mapblast.com/myblast/nAdv.mb?IC=::::: is a small positive integer [8 is a small red cross]. You have to be logged into mapblast already. There's a point where the length of the URL gets too long and it breaks, which is where most people either pay up the cash to buy a mapping program or switch to using tiger (there was a discussion about this on the seattle wireless list a while back.) Hope this helps. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 7 11:41:08 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E07@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E07@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020207113734.1f891f22.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> "Austad, Jay" wrote: > > Yep, you or your neighbor was either using a 2.4Ghz cordless phone, or a > microwave. Also, the X10 wireless video links are 2.4Ghz, and very noisy. > This is almost certainly the cause. Maybe, but wouldn't interference from those come up as `noise' on the signal/noise measurements provided by iwconfig? I have yet to see anything other than -256dBm there, and S/N ratio can be +200 and still have the same trouble. Also, the trick in this case is to reboot the access point. Instantly, transfer rates go back to normal (~700kByte/s). -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ In the carpool lane to / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ Nirvana. \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020207/e722ece5/attachment.pgp From natecars at real-time.com Thu Feb 7 12:50:41 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] WAP11 slow link In-Reply-To: <20020207080603.4ebaaea4.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Mike Hicks wrote: > Has anyone seen access points suddenly start running at very low > speeds, even though the link has still negotiated to 11Mbps? I was > having trouble yesterday, as the Linksys WAP11 in my apartment was > only allowing data transfers of 16kByte/s. Rebooting the access point > brought it back up to full speed. > > This may have coincided with my roommate resuming his WinXP laptop > from hibernate -- he has some weird problem where the system takes > several minutes to re-associate with the AP, and it's usually faster > for him to reboot both XP and the access point. He's using an Orinoco > Silver card. Yeah. What firmware version are you running? Older ones have issues where they will suddenly just show down for a while. Going to the newest firmware should hopefully fix it. Other possible issues are microwaves and 2.4ghz phones. If you're at the new firmware, and no microwaves or phones, turning off auto rate negotiation and forcing it to 11mb only sometimes works. -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From sbutler at ARNAN.com Thu Feb 7 14:48:38 2002 From: sbutler at ARNAN.com (Spencer Butler) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday 05 February 2002 10:10 pm, you wrote: > natecars@real-time.com wrote: > > [...] > > Anyone know where to get on anline app that'll let people add their own > > AP's? I know there's been talk of it on > > bawug/seattlewireless/nycwirelesse, but I haven't paid a ton of > > attention.. > > The aussies from sydneywireless are willing to release the > code for their node mapping pages, once they've taken off > a few more of the rough edges. I'll keep you posted.. Is this something the tcwug is interested in? Bob was talking about setting up a geek-2-geek wireless backbone. I am more than willing to contribute what ever resource I have to this endeavor. However, with my current setup, I can not even get a signal from the street to my house. I will refrain from giving the lon and lat at this time. Soon, very soon, we should get some intercommunication going on. Just a few thoughts. From lxy at cloudnet.com Thu Feb 7 15:07:38 2002 From: lxy at cloudnet.com (Brian) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] MSP wireless LAN In-Reply-To: <20020206232203.F1330@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Chris Elmquist wrote: > My bet is that it was queued in his outbox since then and he just > connected to the net and shipped it off. For the non-TCLUG'ers on TCWUG, the listserv is bogged down so messages aren't always delivering on time. For more infop, browse the TCLUG archives. -Brian From andyw at pobox.com Thu Feb 7 15:25:37 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:37 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: ; from sbutler@ARNAN.com on Tue, Feb 05, 2002 at 10:34:57PM -0600 References: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020207151439.I28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Spencer Butler wrote: > [...] > Is this something the tcwug is interested in? Bob was talking about > setting up a geek-2-geek wireless backbone. I am more than willing to > contribute what ever resource I have to this endeavor. However, with my > current setup, I can not even get a signal from the street to my house. I > will refrain from giving the lon and lat at this time. Soon, very soon, we > should get some intercommunication going on. Just a few thoughts. Just so that we can get an early read on the feasability of this, can everyone who's at least mildly interested in this ping the list with their approximate location ? If we see: Chaska White Bear Lake Edina Maple Plain Eden Prarie S. Mpls Eagan W. St. Paul Savage Woodbury Dinkytown Then we know that we're not ready for this yet. Without serious antennas (aka $$$) and/or assitance from the terrain, you'll not get an 802.11b signal very far in this terrain. As I said before, the sprawl that we're so famous for, combined with mostly flat terrain makes a mesh network hard to do here. Don't peg me as a hopeless whiner, but I've been here before (at 9600baud and 56Kbaud) and it's harder than saying "yeah - cool". As for even being able to get out to the kerb, you'll not get very far at all without an external antenna of some sort. If folks are really serious about working on a network, how about an in person meeting of interested parties - it'll be so much better if we're planning to get anything done. I'm happy to co-ordinate. I'll start the ball rolling by interpreting the lat/long I gave out before as 44th/France in S Mpls/Edina. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From hick0088 at tc.umn.edu Thu Feb 7 15:54:01 2002 From: hick0088 at tc.umn.edu (Mike Hicks) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:38 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless backbones (was: Map of locations for possible AP's) In-Reply-To: References: <20020204152626.A21929@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020205221055.A26079@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020207153937.0a7f2ca5.hick0088@tc.umn.edu> Spencer Butler wrote: > > Is this something the tcwug is interested in? Bob was talking about > setting up a geek-2-geek wireless backbone. I am more than willing to > contribute what ever resource I have to this endeavor. However, with my > current setup, I can not even get a signal from the street to my house. I > will refrain from giving the lon and lat at this time. Soon, very soon, we > should get some intercommunication going on. Just a few thoughts. Well, if you want to build a backbone, you probably need directional antennas on those access points, so they wouldn't be accessible to the man on the street.. You could connect up some local APs with omnidirectional antennas, though. On the idea of a backbone, though, has anyone found out if it's possible to multiplex traffic over multiple APs, each using different channels, and then run them over either the same antenna or adjacent antennas? ie, have two APs at each end, each one on different channels, possibly getting 2x the bandwidth? -- _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ __ Curiosity killed the cat, / \/ \(_)| ' // ._\ / - \(_)/ ./| ' /(__ but for a while I was a \_||_/|_||_|_\\___/ \_-_/|_|\__\|_|_\ __) suspect. [ Mike Hicks | http://umn.edu/~hick0088/ | mailto:hick0088@tc.umn.edu ] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tcwug-list/attachments/20020207/40a345e2/attachment.pgp From austad at marketwatch.com Thu Feb 7 16:11:33 2002 From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:38 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E24@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Well range isn't that big of an issue. It's line of sight. A 40 foot mast is about $70, which should get you above the trees in most areas. Using a 24db dish ($130), you can do about 23 miles with no amplifiers. You might run into zoning problems with an antenna that tall though. That's why I'm going to get my ham radio license this weekend. The FCC license overrides local ordinances on antenna height. :) Jay > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Warner [mailto:andyw@pobox.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 3:15 PM > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's > > > Spencer Butler wrote: > > [...] > > Is this something the tcwug is interested in? Bob was > talking about > > setting up a geek-2-geek wireless backbone. I am more than > willing to > > contribute what ever resource I have to this endeavor. > However, with my > > current setup, I can not even get a signal from the street > to my house. I > > will refrain from giving the lon and lat at this time. > Soon, very soon, we > > should get some intercommunication going on. Just a > few thoughts. > > Just so that we can get an early read on the feasability of this, > can everyone who's at least mildly interested in this ping the list > with their approximate location ? If we see: > > Chaska > White Bear Lake > Edina > Maple Plain > Eden Prarie > S. Mpls > Eagan > W. St. Paul > Savage > Woodbury > Dinkytown > > Then we know that we're not ready for this yet. Without serious > antennas (aka $$$) and/or assitance from the terrain, you'll not > get an 802.11b signal very far in this terrain. > > As I said before, the sprawl that we're so famous for, combined > with mostly flat terrain makes a mesh network hard to do > here. Don't peg me as a hopeless whiner, but I've been here > before (at 9600baud and 56Kbaud) and it's harder than > saying "yeah - cool". > > As for even being able to get out to the kerb, you'll not > get very far at all without an external antenna of some sort. > > If folks are really serious about working on a network, how > about an in person meeting of interested parties - it'll be > so much better if we're planning to get anything done. I'm > happy to co-ordinate. > > I'll start the ball rolling by interpreting the lat/long > I gave out before as 44th/France in S Mpls/Edina. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Feb 7 16:46:41 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:38 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E24@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>; from austad@marketwatch.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 04:03:00PM -0600 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E24@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020207164312.C6625@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (02/07/2002 at 04:03PM -0600), Austad, Jay wrote: > Well range isn't that big of an issue. It's line of sight. A 40 foot mast > is about $70, which should get you above the trees in most areas. Using a > 24db dish ($130), you can do about 23 miles with no amplifiers. > > You might run into zoning problems with an antenna that tall though. That's > why I'm going to get my ham radio license this weekend. The FCC license > overrides local ordinances on antenna height. :) ah... not quite. I'm glad you're getting your amateur license but it is not true that having said license gets you any exception from these local ordinances. There is a federal ruling called PRB-1 which states only that these municipalities must afford "reasonable accomodation" for amateur antennas. This still means you must get permits and most cities still have height restrictions at 30' (some are even 20' or 10' above the roof line) and you must battle with the city to get around these limits. It's a sad situation but we are not yet at the point where an amateur license gets you anything more than some additional consideration unfortunately. Also, you may sometimes have to deal with CC&Rs (covenants, conditions and restrictions) which are private contracts between the property owner and the neighborhood developer. These have absolutely no override support at the federal level w.r.t. amateur antennas. Only broadcast TV antennas and 18" (actually up to 23") satellite dishes have been federally preempted from these. It would be my position that any successful deployment of this kind of network would depend on finding good, high, public sites for repeaters rather than at people's houses (since there will be only a few of us with towers or the ability to install towers). The majority of the sites should plan on using small antennas such as loop yagis, grid reflectors or flat panels and point them at the repeaters. Then, wireline access is provided from people's houses or other facilities and put onto the network via these directional antennas. A repeater is perhaps two APs tied together with an ethernet crossover cable or something more fancy like a single AP with an antenna switch that allows it to automatically switch between an omni and a directional antenna depending who the packet is for. But it doesn't neccessarily provide access to the wireline network. It simply extends coverage of the wireless network. I have a 40' tower here (45.056N 92.978W 1073MSL) in Mahtomedi and I have line of site to Wisconsin... but a somewhat less than ideal microwave view to the south and southwest. Count me in for playing along too. I have lots of RF test equipment for building, tuning and testing antennas and microwave systems and a fair amount of experience installing said gear. As I mentioned, I am in Mahtomedi-- which is just south of White Bear Lake, a northeastern suburb of St. Paul-- and NOT a suburb of Duluth inspite of what Andy Warner will tell you. Chris ARO N0JCF -- Chris Elmquist | mailto:chrise@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From andyw at pobox.com Thu Feb 7 17:03:48 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:38 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E24@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>; from austad@marketwatch.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 04:03:00PM -0600 References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA003514E24@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> Message-ID: <20020207170132.J28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Austad, Jay wrote: > Well range isn't that big of an issue. It's line of sight. A 40 foot mast > is about $70, which should get you above the trees in most areas. Using a > 24db dish ($130), you can do about 23 miles with no amplifiers. It's not _quite_ that simple. You need LOS plus something called fresnel-zone clearance. There's a fresnel zone calculator at: http://www.ydi.com/fresnel-zone.php Putting a 24dB dish ontop of a $70 tower is not going to work too well after a storm or two. (Re-)aligning it is kind of a challenge too. All of this work gives you one end of a point-to-point link. If you're pointing at a central site, along with many others, you're going to see throughput degrade because of hidden-node problems (where two leaf-node transmitters stomp on each other because they can't hear that someone else is transmitting.) You can lower the RTS/CTS threshold which will help, at the expense of latency. Remember also that at these distances, 802.11b is going to be running at 1 or 2 Mbits. > You might run into zoning problems with an antenna that tall though. That's > why I'm going to get my ham radio license this weekend. The FCC license > overrides local ordinances on antenna height. :) Glad to see you get licenced. Let me prematurely welcome you to amateur radio - I'm N0REN aka G1XRL (in a previous life.) Anyway, let's start collecting approximate locations, so we can see what we have to deal with. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From natecars at real-time.com Thu Feb 7 17:36:58 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:38 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020207151439.I28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > I'll start the ball rolling by interpreting the lat/long I gave out > before as 44th/France in S Mpls/Edina. My house is in Bloomington (108th and Xerxes), but at the very bottom of a valley -- ie, a hill going up on each side. :( Real Time's in Eden Prairie (212 and Shady Oak area), but I don't know how Bob will feel about drilling holes through the walls to get LMR-400 into the office. :) -- Nate Carlson | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com | Fax : (952)943-8500 From andyw at pobox.com Fri Feb 8 17:45:26 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Fun article & WAP-11 trivia. Message-ID: <20020208173658.B3995@florence.linkmargin.com> A friend just turned me on to this: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020207.html Tangentally, the article mentions the near legendary "WAP-11 100mW hack" - here are some spectrum analyser plots someone posted to another list. It looks like it is a not-so-good idea after all: http://www.maokhian.com/wireless/wap11.html While the factory default numbers may not result in the highest output power cleanly possible, it's obviously somewhat counter-productive to simply max-out the power. While we're on the subject of WAP11's - does anyone have a config util that permits you to control the antenna diversity. I think the old utilities used to, but all the recent ones don't seem to offer that option. The Atmel MIB doesn't even mention antenna diversity that I can see. I want to hook one up to an external antenna, and while I think it'll be fine if I just terminate the unused port, I'd like to do it right(tm) if I can. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Fri Feb 8 22:31:05 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, Feb 07, 2002 at 05:31:28PM -0600 References: <20020207151439.I28958@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Nate Carlson wrote: > [...] > My house is in Bloomington (108th and Xerxes), but at the very bottom of a > valley -- ie, a hill going up on each side. :( > > Real Time's in Eden Prairie (212 and Shady Oak area), but I don't know how > Bob will feel about drilling holes through the walls to get LMR-400 into > the office. :) So far we have 5 entries. Check out the current map at: http://www.geocities.com/andyw_lala/currentnode.gif Send more entires, there's a lot of empty space to fill as you can see. We can do topo maps too, but they're useless at this scale. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From jeff at digitalguy.net Sat Feb 9 01:16:01 2002 From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeffrey C. Lehman) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> References: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <23747.63.228.44.229.1013238423.squirrel@www2.digitalguy.net> I'm just getting into the wireless stuff but i'd be interested in participating also. I live in Columbia Heights (central and st anthony). I also have my amateur radio license (KC0JBP). I was thinking about running TCP/IP over AX.25. Anyone ever tried that? I have a TNC that will do 9600 bps, but i assume you can find ones that will transmit faster. IIRC the limit on 2Meters is 19.6 but on 440 it's 56k. If a couple of us have ham licenses we could set up a backbone that way. Oh well, just thinking out loud. Jeff > Nate Carlson wrote: >> [...] >> My house is in Bloomington (108th and Xerxes), but at the very bottom >> of a valley -- ie, a hill going up on each side. :( >> >> Real Time's in Eden Prairie (212 and Shady Oak area), but I don't know >> how Bob will feel about drilling holes through the walls to get >> LMR-400 into the office. :) > > So far we have 5 entries. Check out the current map at: > > http://www.geocities.com/andyw_lala/currentnode.gif > > Send more entires, there's a lot of empty space to fill as you can see. > > We can do topo maps too, but they're useless at this scale. > -- > andyw@pobox.com > > Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 > _______________________________________________ > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, > Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org > tcwug-list@tcwug.org > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list From chrise at pobox.com Sat Feb 9 09:59:51 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <23747.63.228.44.229.1013238423.squirrel@www2.digitalguy.net>; from jeff@digitalguy.net on Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 07:07:03AM -0000 References: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> <23747.63.228.44.229.1013238423.squirrel@www2.digitalguy.net> Message-ID: <20020209095638.N6625@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (02/09/2002 at 07:07AM -0000), Jeffrey C. Lehman wrote: > > I'm just getting into the wireless stuff but i'd be interested in > participating also. I live in Columbia Heights (central and st anthony). > > I also have my amateur radio license (KC0JBP). I was thinking about > running TCP/IP over AX.25. Anyone ever tried that? I have a TNC that yes... back in 1988 :-) I had the first 44. IP address here in the Twin Cities. But-- not much got done with it. > will do 9600 bps, but i assume you can find ones that will transmit > faster. IIRC the limit on 2Meters is 19.6 but on 440 it's 56k. If a > couple of us have ham licenses we could set up a backbone that way. Oh > well, just thinking out loud. I think there may be some interesting/slightly useful things to do involving mobile applications. Andy Warner can comment on the status of it-- but the 9600bps repeater on the top of Moos Tower makes it alot easier to get reliable link from lots of places around town on UHF. There is also (or was) a gateway from the wired Internet to this 9600bps RF network so you could originate frames on the wired side, destin for some mobile unit on the RF side. I envisioned sending real-time or near real-time traffic data to a PDA or laptop in the car... but I never deployed anything. I think there might be a fair trade here-- trading lower speed for the ability to get link from non-LOS locations and moving platforms. You could certainly build unlimited SMS (short text messaging) from a PDA+UHF HT w/ internal TNC. I am actually still considering 9600bps satellite uplink/downlink capability in my vehicle for when I travel out west into places with no cellular coverage and I can't live without my email :-) 56K is alot more work since this is done with a true RF modem (rather than plumbing audio into the mic and speaker jacks of a voice radio) and you then get into transmit/receive converters, potentially preamps and poweramps and associated T/R switching. A bunch of messing around with not too much useful return IMHO (except for the learning and experimenting part of course). But if you are after highspeed, reliable links, I'd throw the effort behind 802.11 stuff any day. I hate throwing cold water on people's ideas... and that's certainly not my intention. It's just that some of us old timers have been down this path around this town before and not gotten the expected return. I would encourage you to persue this kind of thing strictly for the educational benefit but I would be careful about putting too much expectation into what you will be able to do with it once you have built it. Chris -- Chris Elmquist | mailto:chrise@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From andyw at pobox.com Sat Feb 9 11:56:01 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020209095638.N6625@n0jcf.net>; from chrise@pobox.com on Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 09:56:38AM -0600 References: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> <23747.63.228.44.229.1013238423.squirrel@www2.digitalguy.net> <20020209095638.N6625@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20020209113848.G3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > [...] > > will do 9600 bps, but i assume you can find ones that will transmit > > faster. IIRC the limit on 2Meters is 19.6 but on 440 it's 56k. If a > > couple of us have ham licenses we could set up a backbone that way. Oh > > well, just thinking out loud. > > I think there may be some interesting/slightly useful things to do involving > mobile applications. Andy Warner can comment on the status of it-- but the > 9600bps repeater on the top of Moos Tower makes it alot easier to get reliable > link from lots of places around town on UHF. There is also (or was) a > gateway from the wired Internet to this 9600bps RF network so you could > originate frames on the wired side, destin for some mobile unit on the RF > side. I envisioned sending real-time or near real-time traffic data Both the gateway and the repeater still seem to be operational: $ traceroute $_ traceroute to augs-gw.tcman.ampr.org (44.94.9.14), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 10.38.224.1 (10.38.224.1) 847.710 ms 199.402 ms 434.667 ms 2 msp-hub1-gsr-b-pos5-0.mn.rr.com (24.26.161.37) 12.705 ms 28.341 ms 10.236 ms 3 mplsmn01-rtr1-pos-2-0.mn.rr.com (24.26.161.1) 11.978 ms 11.121 ms 12.244 ms 4 acr2-sonet2-1-0-0.Minneapolis.cw.net (208.174.1.129) 11.946 ms 12.663 ms 13.693 ms 5 acr1-loopback.Chicagochd.cw.net (208.172.2.61) 20.782 ms 22.097 ms 19.945 ms 6 corerouter1.WillowSprings.cw.net (204.70.9.135) 21.420 ms 22.567 ms 19.957 ms 7 bordercore2.WillowSprings.cw.net (166.48.22.1) 22.182 ms 22.270 ms 22.152 ms 8 concentric-networks.WillowSprings.cw.net (166.48.23.250) 23.811 ms 23.983 ms 23.470 ms 9 a14-0d603.tran1.chi-il.us.xo.net (207.88.50.129) 26.410 ms 22.372 ms 21.998 ms 10 ge5-3-1.RAR1.Chicago-IL.us.xo.net (64.220.0.189) 23.795 ms 22.924 ms 31.848 ms 11 p0-0-0-0.RAR2.Chicago-IL.us.xo.net (65.106.1.86) 22.553 ms 23.419 ms 21.948 ms 12 p1-0-0.RAR1.Dallas-TX.us.xo.net (65.106.0.34) 46.553 ms 46.272 ms 48.873 ms 13 p6-0-0.RAR2.LA-CA.us.xo.net (65.106.0.14) 105.908 ms 75.908 ms 76.259 ms 14 ge1-0.dist1.lax-ca.us.xo.net (64.220.0.99) 80.012 ms 77.945 ms 75.461 ms 15 a2-0d2.dist1.sdg-ca.us.xo.net (206.111.14.238) 79.769 ms 81.098 ms 83.312 ms 16 209.31.222.150 (209.31.222.150) 84.804 ms 83.669 ms 82.825 ms 17 206.111.14.118 (206.111.14.118) 114.955 ms 84.460 ms 85.300 ms 18 node-b-msfc--ucsd-gw.ucsd.edu (132.239.255.141) 86.153 ms 85.358 ms 88.919 ms 19 132.239.255.163 (132.239.255.163) 85.435 ms 86.405 ms 84.444 ms 20 mirrorshades.ucsd.edu (128.54.16.18) 91.220 ms 87.415 ms 86.804 ms 21 augs-gw.tcman.ampr.org (44.94.9.14) 117.528 ms 120.398 ms 212.582 ms $ IIRC, the repeater is on 444.400/449.400. If you listen with a standard NBFM rx (to the output on 444.4), it sounds like the squelch breaks every now and again. Two things would make me lobby to keep the amateur stuff distinct from any free-net: o the content restrictions that apply to ham traffic (no commercial, offensive, music etc etc etc) o the *huge* speed disparity, even between a 1Mbps 802.11 connection and a 56Kbps one. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From chrise at pobox.com Sat Feb 9 12:12:23 2002 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Map of locations for possible AP's In-Reply-To: <20020209113848.G3995@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:38:48AM -0600 References: <20020208222034.F3995@florence.linkmargin.com> <23747.63.228.44.229.1013238423.squirrel@www2.digitalguy.net> <20020209095638.N6625@n0jcf.net> <20020209113848.G3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020209120343.D1330@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (02/09/2002 at 11:38AM -0600), Andy Warner wrote: > > Two things would make me lobby to keep the amateur stuff distinct from > any free-net: > > o the content restrictions that apply to ham traffic > (no commercial, offensive, music etc etc etc) > > o the *huge* speed disparity, even between a 1Mbps 802.11 > connection and a 56Kbps one. Oh yes. These are definitely two different discussions! :-) cje -- Chris Elmquist | mailto:chrise@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~chrise From natecars at real-time.com Mon Feb 11 09:46:57 2002 From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Fun article & WAP-11 trivia. In-Reply-To: <20020208173658.B3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Andy Warner wrote: > While the factory default numbers may not result in the highest output > power cleanly possible, it's obviously somewhat counter-productive to > simply max-out the power. From andyw at pobox.com Mon Feb 11 11:29:01 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Fun article & WAP-11 trivia. In-Reply-To: ; from natecars@real-time.com on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 09:41:14AM -0600 References: <20020208173658.B3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Message-ID: <20020211111237.M3995@florence.linkmargin.com> Nate Carlson wrote: > [...] > >From what I've read, Linksys actually hooks these babies up to a tester in > the factory, and sets the max power on each unit to what it can put out > within FCC regulations. I agree that the numbers are plugged in by some automated step at the tail end of manufacturing. The criteria are more likely to be some design values, rather than the max permissible o/p. Some boxes may be able to put more out cleanly, others may not. Without access to some pretty spendy test equipment, your average Joe has no way of telling :-( > I've done this hack, and it does greatly increase range -- but is the cost > worth it? I think not.. unless you really don't mind killing everything in > the frequency range. :) (Basically, if you're on channel 6, you'll see > traffic on 1-11 from this radio..) I agree that now the plots are in, this hack is at best not very effective, and at worst detrimental to other users of the spectrum (and not just the ISM band, but people either side of it.) > [WAP11 diversity config utility question...] > Hmm.. the second-to-most-recent USB utility did.. they removed that? > That's lame. Maybe people didn't understand diversity and thought they > could have one antenna for inside and one for outside or something.. :) Want to know what the *only* difference I can find between the USB and the SNMP utilities is - you guessed it: diversity. I was using the SNMP utilities because the WAP11 now lives on the end of 1/2" of hardline near the roof, connected to my DMZ via a 10-base-FL link. I lugged a laptop upstairs and connected the USB cable, and it's all configured now, thanks for making me revisit the well. -- andyw@pobox.com Andy Warner Voice: (612) 801-8549 Fax: (208) 575-5634 From andyw at pobox.com Mon Feb 25 10:49:43 2002 From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner) Date: Tue Jan 18 11:35:39 2005 Subject: [TCWUG] Re: [NoCatNet] NoCatAuth on the map (fwd) Message-ID: <20020225103743.B17794@florence.linkmargin.com>